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This is a cross-university blog project between Clemson University and the University of South Carolina - Upstate for the Spring 2008 semester. In this forum, our collaborative efforts will discuss the arguments found in popular war-based music from the 1960s.
Contributors
- Joey Schumacher - Clemson University
- Erin McCoy - USC Upstate
- Chase Hart - Clemson University
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21 comments:
Phil Ochs – “I Ain’t Marchin’ Anymore” (1965)
Oh I marched to the battle of New Orleans
At the end of the early British war
The young land started growing
The young blood started flowing
But I ain't marchin' anymore
For I've killed my share of Indians
In a thousand different fights
I was there at the Little Big Horn
I heard many men lying I saw many more dying
But I ain't marchin' anymore
It's always the old to lead us to the war
It's always the young to fall
Now look at all we've won with the saber and the gun
Tell me is it worth it all
For I stole California from the Mexican land
Fought in the bloody Civil War
Yes I even killed my brothers
And so many others But I ain't marchin' anymore
For I marched to the battles of the German trench
In a war that was bound to end all wars
Oh I must have killed a million men
And now they want me back again
But I ain't marchin' anymore
(chorus)
For I flew the final mission in the Japanese sky
Set off the mighty mushroom roar
When I saw the cities burning I knew that I was learning
That I ain't marchin' anymore
Now the labor leader's screamin'
when they close the missile plants,
United Fruit screams at the Cuban shore,
Call it "Peace" or call it "Treason,"
Call it "Love" or call it "Reason,"
But I ain't marchin' any more,
No I ain't marchin' any more
Hey, I`m Jack Arthur from USC Upstate. I believe that the lyrics of Ochs` song “I Ain`t Marchin` Anymore” are quite rebellious of war. He is obviously tired of war, he cannot stand the though of war. I believe that he is just trying to get everyone to see how many wars that our beloved country has been involved in since its beginning. He believes that we as a country have bullied other countries and we also have lost many young men for almost no apparent reason. He is tired of our country fighting, but most of all, he is tired of all of the violence and killing. I believe that he really wants some peace and harmony for a change at this point. Near the end of the song when he talks about “Call it `Peace’ or call it `Treason,’” I believe that Ochs` is saying that he knows that he is supposed to defend his country, but he personally cannot stand for war.
Jack Arthur (4)
Hey yall! My name is Cathryn Wilson and I am a freshman nursing major at Clemson University. Phil Ochs’ song “I Ain’t Marchin’ Anymore” is making a very strong antiwar statement. Throughout the song he recounts different wars the United States has been a part of since its establishment. Ochs is trying to get the audience to think about the cost of wars and if they are really worth the fight. In the Civil War we were fighting against our own brothers; the world wars cost many millions of men their lives. Though the United States as over all been very successful in the battles and wars that we have fought in, is the loss of young men’s lives worth it all? He constantly repeats the line “No I ain’t marchin’ anymore.” He is done fighting all the wars that the old men who lead our country send him off to. I think he is also trying to get others to see what he sees and join him in his quest to stop fighting and participating in the wars our country gets into.
Cathryn W. Clemson, Section 11.
Hey Group!
My name is Kelci Wilson and I am a freshman accounting major at Clemson University. I loved the passion Ochs’ used in his song “I Ain’t Marchin’ Anymore”. He makes a clear statement that he is tired of fighting. The song is sort of like a time line of all the wars our country has fought in. He starts off talking about the battle of New Orleans and Little Big Horn. Ochs paints a mental picture of the men killed by saying “the young blood started flowing” and “I heard many men lying I saw many more dying.” I’m not real sure what he means by “the young land started growing” but if I had to guess I would say he’s talking about the country growing while its men were fighting. He makes many remarks about young men in the war and many references to all the people he has killed (“Indians”, “my brothers”, and “a million men”). I don’t believe that Ochs is antiwar but it is obvious that he is tired of all the fighting this country has been involved in.
Kelci Wilson, Clemson Section 50.
Whats good group!! my name is Jerome W. and i attend Clemson Univ. I agree with the previous comments that you guys left earlier about Ochs' passion and disbeliefs about the war. I agree with him and his lyrics; when you can not find anything good in the war it is time to end it. Call it what you want but nothing good hardly ever comes out of war. Somebody always is dying from both sides...so when is the war over???? when the opposing side is all dead, so where's the victory in that?
Hey guys, my name's Mike Beaver and I'm a business major at Clemson. It seems like everyone agree with the lyrics to Ochs's song. Although he really did not fight in all of these wars, or maybe in any of them, I think he is just showing his feelings against war in general. I think his lyrics can speak to our day in age with the war in Iraq. He really doesn't beat around the bush in any of the lyrics to the song, and I think he is just tired of seeing young me dying on the battlefields. I think one of his strongest lines is "I must have killed a million men, and now they want me back again". I think this line shows that now matter how much killing goes on, war is inevitable.
Mike Beaver, Section 11, Clemson
Hey everyone, I'm Lex and I am a freshman at Clemson University. I think that Phil Ochs is making a very strong anti-war statement. I think that one of the main points emphasized in this song is the fact that the young are always the ones most affected by war. While Phil Ochs might not be against fighting itself , I think that he is against the toll that it takes on our country and those that are a part of it. The line that stood out the most to me was "I must have killed a million men, and now they want me back again." This line is important because many thought that World War 2 was the world to end all wars because of the mass amounts of destruction and the millions of people that were killed during that time.
Lex Y Section 26
hey yall. i'm thomas. i am a freshman at clemson university. i have to be honest, i'm horrible at pretending i know what an artist is portraying with their work. personally, i think only the artists themselves can truly shed light on the information their turned into art. however, i will give a crack at this. i've been reading what some of the others have put, and i like what i read. i would have to agree with a lot of you. it definitely seems obvious that he doesn't want to be a part of war, but at the same time feels compelled to do what his country asks of him. it's no secret that war is a horrible thing, and it seems this artist is trying to show that. although i haven't heard the song yet, the lyrics seem very powerful, and i'm curious to see if musical assistance gives it a more powerful voice.
Dear group, this is Jack Arthur from Upstate again. After reading everyone`s blog entries, I would have to say that I agree with most of the point of views. I especially agree with when Cathryn Wilson said that “Ochs is trying to get the audience to think about the cost of wars and if they are really worth the fight.” Her statement made me think about the fact that wars can, in some cases, hurt a countries economy and they especially can cause a country to lose many of its young men and women. I also would have to say that I agree with Mike Beaver when he stated that he thought one of the strongest lines of the song is ”I must have killed a million men, and now they want me back again.” I now understand or believe that Ochs is trying to say, through that line, that when we defeat a country in war, there is a revengeful “fire” ignited within the defeated country. This inevitably will end up making war inevitable.
Jack Arthur Upstate Section 4
Hey groupies! It’s Cathryn again. After reading through everyone’s first blog posts it definitely sounds like we are all on the same page with the meaning behind this song. I really like the point that Jack Arthur brought up that I had not even thought of (even though he gives me credit for it). Wars do so much more then destroy the lives of the men fighting. Wars tear families apart, leaving women as widows with no way to support their children and in extreme cases can even leave children as orphans. Wars can destroy the homes and businesses of thousands and cause a depression to fall upon the country due to the damage inflicted on their economy. Kelci Wilson made a good point in her first post. I was a little hasty to make the remark in my first post that Och is antiwar. He is not so much antiwar as he is just tired of all the wars that are taking place and doesn’t want to see any more men lose their lives because their country keeps sending them to wars.
Cathryn W. Clemson, Section 11
Hey Guys, It's Mike Beaver again. After reading everyone's thoughts on Ochs's song, I really like what averyone said. I thought Jack Arthur brought up a good point in referencing the lines with "Call it "Peace" or call it "Treason"". I think in these lines he is just saying that what ever it takes to end the war, needs to occur, whether win or lose. I also agree with Cathryn and Kelci, that Ochs may not be anti-war, just tired of war. I think he probably supports his country's actions, but there is a better way to resovle conflict rather than war. I think Ochs's is saying that war is inevitable, like Jack says, but I think Ochs's is tired of nations not learning from wars, and having them repeatedly occur. I think it's interesting that wars used to spark an economy, but now as our country is amidst a war in the middle east, we are slumping in the economy and possibly headed for a recession.
Mike Beaver, Section 11, Clemson
Hey its Lex again. After reading all of the comments, I would have to agree with most of them. I think that everyone got the point that he was tired of all the fighting that the United States has taken part in. I like the line that both Mike and Jack brought up about "killing a million men, and wanting him back again." This line really emphasizes the idea that war may seem like an eternity while you are actually fighting in it but even when it is over the "bad blood" between the two sides is most likely strong enough to invoke conflict in the future as well. It's almost like there will never be world peace and there is no way around ending wars once the "trend" has already started.
Lex Y (25)
Jerome (60), I concur with most the previous comments. I think that everyone gets the point that he was fed up with all the fighting taken place. The line "killing a million men, and wanting him back again." truly emphasizes the idea that war is an eternity while you are actually fighting, but even when it is over its never really over. I agree with the earlier comment about It's almost like there will never be world peace and there is no way around ending wars once the "trend" has already started. There is no good in war, and if it is i havent seen it.
This is Cathryn Wilson for one final entry into this cross campus blog discussion. Everyone’s comments on here have. Mike Beaver pretty much sums up the entire song in his second entry when he says that Ochs realizes that war is inevitable at times but he does not think we need to go to war for everything. There are many other less harmful ways of solving problems and disagreements then killing one another until one side gives up. Lex also made a valid point. War seems to go on for an eternity while you are fighting in it. Even when it is over there is usually still so much hostility between the opposing sides that the war that just ended could very well start up again at any time. War is a frightening tool that man has come up with to solve his problems but in many instances it just results in the loss of millions of lives and the creation of new problems. The following picture of the Vietnam Memorial I feel helps to capture the country and this particular song’s feelings towards war: http://www.vietnamwar.com/memorywall.jpg. The image displays a man morning over the many names etched into the Vietnam memorial; each name representing the name of a life lost due to the war. Even though the war ended over 30 years ago, the pain and suffering that it caused is still with so many citizens of this country. Before entering into any war, I think we all need to look at pictures like this one that represent what happens after a war is finished and decided whether a war is really the best solution to our problems. Are the lives that will be lost worth the fight?
Cathryn W. Clemson, Section 11
Dear group, this is Jack from Upstate once more. After reading everyone`s second posts, I find that I agree with Cathryn in talking about how wars can render children parentless or they maybe missing one parent. I also agree with Lex’s comment on how war can almost become a “trend” because of anger from past bouts with other countries. I believe that the song, “18 Video Tapes” by Jason Meadows, can relate to this song and to situations where results of war can leave children without one or even both parents. The song is not overly anti-war but it does portray how significant the effects of war can be on family and the soldiers. YouTube - 18 Video Tapes.
Jack Arthur Upstate Section 4
Hi guys, it’s me Kelci Wilson again. After reading all the post, I really thought Jerome made a good point, in his first entry, when he said “Somebody always is dying from both sides…so when is war over?” This is honestly the truth. Even though World Wars have been over for years, there is still hostility between some of the people that fought in them. Americans now and forever will associate Muslims with terrorist because of what happened on 9/11. I also agree with Jack in his third post where he brings up the children affected by the war. Overall, war damages the country and all that it is made of. I found this picture on the internet and just to warn you, it is a little disturbing. However, I think this is how the war should be advertised. This picture portrays the image that not only are soldiers killed in the war but innocent civilians as well. LINK: http://www.afterdowningstreet.org/node/10472
Kelci Wilson, Clemson Section 50
Hey this is Jack again, my youtube hyperlink did not come up right. So, this is the actual website address: http://youtube.com/watch?v=vaGmeFhqEpk
Jack Arthur Upstate Section 04
Hey everyone, it's Mike Beaver again with my last post. Throughout this cross campus discussion, everyone has made some good points and has created some interesting topics for discussion. Cathryn makes an valid point in her second post about how war will break up and destroy families. This statement was echoed with Jack's video post, which was pretty moving. I think a lot of times war becomes just a game of numbers with how many people have been killed on either side. For every person that is killed on either side there are numerous more affected, and this really shows in the video.
http://www.destination360.com/north-america/us/washington-dc/images/s/washington-dc-arlington-national-cemetery-s.jpg
This picture shows a view of Arlington National Cemetery. It shows the rolling hills of gravesites, where over 300,000 are buried. Seeing the site firsthand is quite unbelievable. It's hard to imagine graves stretching for miles. For each of the graves, there are so many others affected, which is also hard to fathom.
Mike Beaver, Clemson, Section 11
Hey its Lex. After reading all of the comments, I think that everyone had a lot of good points. I agree with Jerome about how people are dying on both sides. I also agree with Cathryn's comment about how children's parents are taken away in war. It not only affects people fighting but also families back at home.
http://cache.eb.com/eb/image?id=82584&rendTypeId=4
This picture really illustrates to me what the theme of this song is saying. It shows a veteran on Veteran's Day obviously sad remembering how hard it was fighting in a war. I really respect any US veteran from Vietnam. I couldn't even imagine how hard it would be fight in those conditions away from my family and friends.
Lex Y 26
hey everyone, this is Thomas. i missed the last deadline, and i'm pissed at myself for it, so i'm going to torture yall with an even longer post to try to make up for it. i'm terrible at this sort of thing, but i'm going to give it my best shot at pretending to think i know what the author is trying to portray. i'll just try to mostly talk about what i know: it's no great mystery of life, war is never the best option, but it is unfortunately something that is often the best option under the circumstances. unlike what tree-hugging dreamers enjoy pretending, war will always exist, and is an inevitable fact of nature. unlike what many like to pretend, it is a completely natural thing, and is not contained in the human universe. animals often fight one another for territory, food, mates, and so on and so forth. the same is true of humans, and there is no denying it. animals and humans alike fight for very simple reasons (all of the above reasons included in the following). these reasons revolve around what evolution has driven into our very nature: the drive to survive and procreate. no matter how you look at it, every reason for every war (both human and animal) is driven by the preceding two reasons. People feel threatened, and therefore lash out for self-protection of themselves and potential offspring. this is the reason for war, a genetic code engineered over millions of years. one might ask, but what of the soldiers fighting in the war. they didn't decide when and why to fight. this is a false idea dreamed up. every soldier is fighting for the same reasons as generals and the government. they are trying to protect their families (their genetic code) and themselves. war is indeed a terrible thing, but will always occur and will always be inevitable. Cathryn makes a great point however when she says we don't need to go to war for everything. unlike many of our animal brethren, we are endowed with the voice of reason and a conscience. we are given the mind to decide for ourselves whether war is the right path. i made enough of a point on why wars happen, so i hope it's understood that i think it will continue, even if it's not worth it in the end. in respect to the poem itself, i agree with jerome, he is fed up with fighting. one must ask yourself however, what are you going to do to stop it. and even if everyone does their part, war and fighting in general will always be existance. it is something that protects our very existance on this planet, and at the same time, it is doomed to destroy us.
Dear group, sorry i am like several hours late. After reading everyone`s second posts, I agree about how wars can leave children parentless or they maybe missing one parent. which is a lost that many children are suffering these days lately. this can be prevented with the end of wars. I also agree with Lex’s comment on how war can almost become a “trend” because of anger from past bouts with other countries. Its like when children say that thy smoked for the first time because everyone is doin it...so we go to wars because everyone is doin it. I thought Jack brought up a good point in referencing the lines with "Call it "Peace" or call it "Treason"". I think in these lines he is just saying that whatever is needed to end the war, needs to happen, whether win or lose or draw. Ochs's is saying that war is inevitable, like Jack says, but I think Ochs's is tired of nations not learning from wars and the lives lost fighting them, and having them repeatedly occur.
Jerome 60
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