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This is a cross-university blog project between Clemson University and the University of South Carolina - Upstate for the Spring 2008 semester. In this forum, our collaborative efforts will discuss the arguments found in popular war-based music from the 1960s.
Contributors
- Joey Schumacher - Clemson University
- Erin McCoy - USC Upstate
- Chase Hart - Clemson University
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22 comments:
Buffy Saint-Marie/Donovan – “Universal Soldier” (1964)
He’s 5 foot 2 and he’s 6 feet 4
He fights with missiles and with spears
He’s all of 31 and he’s only 17.
He’s been a soldier for a thousand years
He’s a catholic, a Hindu, an atheist, a Jane
A Bhuddist, and a Baptist and Jew.
And he knows he shouldn’t kill
And he knows he always will kill
You’ll for me my friend and me for you
And He’s fighting for Canada.
He’s fighting for France.
He’s fighting for the USA.
And he’s fighting for the Russians.
And he’s fighting for Japan
And he thinks we’ll put an end to war this way.
And He’s fighting for democracy,
He’s fighting for the reds
He says it’s for the peace of all.
He’s the one, who must decide,
who’s to live and who’s to die.
And he never sees the writing on the wall.
But without him,
how would Hitler have condemned him at Dachau?
Without him Caesar would have stood alone
He’s the one who gives his body
as a weapon of the war.
And without him all this killing can’t go on
He’s the universal soldier
And he really is the blame
His orders comes from
far away no more.
They come from him.
And you and me.
And brothers can’t you see.
This is not the way we put an end to war
Hey, I am Wes Chisholm, a freshman at Clemson University. I am a business major with an interest in finance. This poem, Universal Soldier, by Buffy Saint-Marie/ Donovan focuses on the issue of war and how constant fighting between nations across the globe should be put to an end. The title of this poem, Universal Soldier, is constantly addressed throughout the work. The poem states many times about how soldiers are the same everywhere no matter what side that they are fighting for.
The soldiers are described in the poem by stating, “ He’s the universal soldier, and he really is the blame.” These two lines from the poem show that the soldiers are the ones killing the people and it also says that it is their fault as to why people get killed in war. I totally disagree with this poem for one major reason. This reason is that the soldiers get drafted into the war, usually against their will, and are forced to follow the orders of their commanders. These orders in fighting nations are typically kill the people not wearing the color on your own uniform. Even though the soldiers are the ones that are literally killing each other you cannot blame them for the deaths since they are in no control. For a soldier fighting in a deadly war you have to either “kill or be killed.” This poem was probably very influential during this time period of the Vietnam War; this however does not mean that, it was accurate in placing the blame for all the fighting during the 1960’s.
Wes C. (26)
Josh B. (60)
Hey im Josh a freshman at Clemson and im majoring in Agriculture Mechinization. This song conveys alot of different meanings to me. First of all I believe that the poem is representing the many side affects of war. In one point of view it shows how an older man goes to war and how a 17 year old child goes to war. The main point that the song is trying to get at is the government does not care whether you are young or old, or whether you are black or white they want you to fight for them no matter what. Towards the end of the song they are relating to the individual commitment that the solider can make whether he wants to take the orders as they come or do what they think is right.
Hey, my name is Chris I am a freshman at Clemson University. I am majoring in Civil Engineering. In Buffy Saint-Marie/ Donovan’s song “Universal Soldier,” Donovan and Saint-Marie criticize soldiers of all militaries of the world. The song starts out by giving a very general description of a soldier, the opening line reads, “He’s 5 foot 2 and he’s 6 feet 4.” This basically establishes a range of the height of soldiers for any military on earth. An age range is also established with, “He’s all of 31 and he’s only 17,” once again this gives a general range of the age of soldiers who would be fighting on the battlefield. Saint-Marie and Donovan further describe a soldier listing the major religions of the world and a few world powers such as USA, Japan, and Russia. I believe that Buffy Saint-Marie and Donovan are trying to reach out to the soldiers who are fighting to try to convince these men that what they are doing is wrong and unjustified. For example, in the second verse it reads, “And he knows he shouldn’t kill, And he knows he always will kill.” The musicians establish an implied stereotype that all soldiers are killers and will always be killers. Donovan and Saint-Marie are trying to open the soldiers’ eyes to their (Donovan and Saint-Marie) point of view. Donovan and Saint-Marie accuse these “universal soldiers” as being the reason for the wars when they say “And without him all this killing can’t go on.” Donovan and Saint-Marie believe that the soldiers’ willingness to fight is the reason for all the wars, if the soldiers were not willing there would be no wars (according to Donovan and Saint-Marie). From my point of view I believe that Donovan and Saint-Marie were trying to stop young men from going to the war by trying to convince them that they are the reason for war.
Chris G. (11)
Didem E. (50)
I am Didem Ege, a sophomore at Clemson University. I am majoring in business with an interest in management. In this poem, the author is blaming soldiers for making the war worse and killing more people than need to be killed. I do not agree with the author’s point of view, because soldiers are the ones that are told to kill or be killed. They always fight to the end of the war instead of killing more and more people. It Is out of their control. They are being faced with the high risk of being killed by other soldiers regardless of their ages, religions, or gender. On the other hand, the author may be trying to keep people away from fighting making them believe that everybody has a right to fight or not. The reason for putting blame on soldiers may be to convince them that they are the ones that can stop the war. I am not sure what the point of view was of the author while writing this poem; however, I do agree with him if the only reason for blaming soldiers was showing that the power of ending the war was in their hands.
Hey I'm Liz Robb. I am a freshman and a Sociology major at Clemson University. In "Universal Soldier," by Buffy Saint-Marie/Donovan, she is saying that although each soldier is different in their own way they are all similar because each of them are fighting to attempt to reach success in hopes of ending the war. I think this shows the strength that a soldier has because he is being forced to do something he may not necessarily want to do. Kind of going back to what Wes and Didem said, they really don't choose to be there and they are just trying to make the best of the situation. "And he knows he shouldn't kill and he knows he always will kill" says that he doesn't want to kill his opponents he is just doing what the people over him are telling him to do. When it says that he is fighting for all of the different countries it shows that if somehow the countries work together the wars may end and peace can be found.
I disagree with these for many of the same reason's the Didem does because when it says "he's the one, who must decide, who's to live and who's to die" it is saying that they can choose which men that want to kill and which the want to have die. That is not necessarily true because they are under the order of someone higher than them such as Caesar or Hitler who is telling them who to kill, meaning that decision is being taken away from them. I think this song is mainly about how soldiers around the world are very much different but all fighting for pretty much the same reason.
Whats up? My names Mac, and I'm a freshman at Clemson University. Currently I am a business major with interest in management. The song "Universal soldier" by Buffy Saint-marie/Donovan shows how the individual soldier can do so many things and has so many choices to make. The universal soldier is constantly referred to in the song.
Donovan says in the end of the song, "He’s the universal soldier
And he really is the blame", and I completely disagree with this line. He also says, "And he knows he shouldn’t kill and he knows he always will kill." This line is really contradictory. How is the soldier to blame if he knows that its wrong, and he doesn't want to. The last line is a really the only one I agree with. "This is not the way we put an end to war", I think that he is saying that we shouldn't use soldiers in war we should just resolve it in another way. I still think Donovan is a little contradictory in his song.
Hey, I'm Jennifer a freshman at USC Upstate, majoring in nursing. To me this song convoys many different things. The song has an older man's point of view of being in the war as well as a younger man. It also shows the man different races and religions that are fighting wars that its not just about one race or religion that there are many different types of people that are fighting wars.
Hey everyone it is Chris G again, and as I was reading through everyone else’s entries I would have to say that I agree with pretty much everyone on this song/poem. I think it is safe to say that war is not a desirable event in the world. This song I feel attacks the soldiers who are fighting in the war despite the authors of the song/poem even knowing the soldiers. I agree with Didem E when he says, “…soldiers are the ones that are told to kill or be killed.” Soldiers are in a kill or be killed environment and I believe that anyone in that situation would fight as hard as they can to continue living despite the cost. Even though this seems to have a very negative connotation towards soldiers I heavily agreed with Liz R when she said, “I think this shows the strength that a soldier has because he is being forced to do something he may not necessarily want to do.” Every soldier wants to serve and protect his country; however, no soldier wants to leave his family to go into an environment where he may not leave. The soldier’s strength in every war is more than admirable.
Chris G (11)
Hey everybody,
It’s me, Didem, again. I agree with what everybody said about the poem. I strongly agree with one thing that Mac said about the poem which was “a universal soldier has so many choices to make”. It is true, but in the past wars soldiers were not strong enough to make their own choices. They just believed that the only way of ending the war was winning. The author is very controversial in his poem as Mac said. In some parts of the poem, the author sounds like he is putting blame on soldiers, but in other parts of the poem, he sounds like he is justifying soldiers. It is hard to tell what he was thinking while writing this poem. The conditions that the author was in might have influenced his poem. For Instance, the author may have written it in times of a major war.
Didem E. (50)
Hey everyone its Liz again. I also agree with everyones ideas that they have put to the table. I agree with Didem heavily especially when she says, "fight to the end of the war," I think that is totally true because all of the soldiers no matter what country, race, or view on war all fight for a victory as hard as they can instead of aiming to kill a certain amount of people. What Chris G. said, I think at least, can also be compared to what Didem said because of how he said "the soldier's willingness to fight is the reason for the wars, if the soldiers were not willing to fight there would be no war." Didem and Chris' statements can related to each other because they both deal with getting past the mental point and that the countries cannot reach a victory without them.
Hi guys its Wes. After reading through everyone's comments it is pretty obvious to me that the group has very similar ideas and mentalities towards this poem. One person who I totally agree with is Josh B. Josh said, "the poem is representing the many side affects of war." After reading this poem for the second time I feel that this inference is very valid because of the burden of having to choose who gets killed in war can be very stressful. I also think that Chris G. has a very strong point in stating that, "From my point of view I believe that Donovan and Saint-Marie were trying to stop young men from going to the war by trying to convince them that they are the reason for war." This is a legitimate theory because in the song or poem it says," without him all this killing can't go on." In reading between the lines i would think that Saint Marie and Donovan are trying to convey that its up to us as potentially future soldiers to stop the war and not join the army.
After reading all of these responses I realized how much they helped to realize many of the hidden meanings in the poem. I think its nice to see how one short song or poem can be broken down in so many ways with various different meanings.
Hey guys its josh again. I agree with Chris very strongly when he stated that a lot of people think that all soldiers and killers and that is what they will always be to the rest of the world. Another person that I agree with is Didem. She wrote that soldiers are not just fighting a war to kill they are fighting to end conflict, it is out of there control how many people they must kill they just have to fight to the end of the war. These two points of view helped me to realize that the soldiers are not always responsible for the killing that they must do.
Hey, it is Jennifer again, I also agree with everyone that has posted before me. I agree with Chris when he says that war is something that is not desirable and how the song is attacking the soldiers who are fighting in the war. I also agree with Mac when he disagrees with “He’s the universal soldier/ And he really is the blame”, and “And he knows he shouldn’t kill and he knows he always will kill.” How is the soldier to blame if he knows that killing is wrong and he does not want to. I thought that Mac did a good job on pointing out how inconsistent the author was in this poem/song. I also agree with Chris again when he says that soldiers are in an environment were any person would want to fight as hard as they could to survive from being killed.
Hey everyone its Liz yet again. After looking over everyones new post and I pretty much agree with everyone. I was just looking at the first post by Wes and I definitely agree with him because when it says that they choose who to kill and it is their fault. Similar to Wes I also agree with what he said because I do not think it is the soldiers fault mainly because they fight to achieve their victory. Many of them do not choose to be at war and are forced because of the draft. I couldn't disagree with the statement anymore when they are blaming the soliders for killing others mainly because that is their job and their life.
I also like the part of "Universal Soldier" when they say, "he's a catholic, a Hindu, an atheist, a Jane, A Buddist, and a Baptist and Jew" because it shows that everyone can be a solider even if they believe in different things and have opposite religious backgrounds. The characteristic that they all have in common is that they are all soldiers fighting in war.
Hey everyone its Wes again. After rereading Mac's comments I realized how right he when stating that the author of this song contradicted himself throughout the lyrics. I think the author takes away the power of some of his points by doing so. Also Chris and Liz both talked about how strong soldiers have to be. I completely agree with them because many times a soldier is forced to take the life of another and that is definitely not an easy thing to do.
In my search for another representation that has a similar theme to the song "Universal Soldier" I came across this picture. http://www.nppa.org/news_and_events/news/2005/05/images/horst_faas_02_000.jpg
After looking offer the photo i was shocked to see how close the war was fought to civilians as young as those depicted in the picture. The soldiers of this war had to be extremely courageous and careful about protecting the innocent women and children while trying to stay alive themselves. All of these things put together show how strong and tough these soldiers had to be.
Hey everyone it is Chris G. I think Wes C said it best when he said, “it is pretty obvious to me that the group has very similar ideas and mentalities towards this poem.” Everyone seems to agree about what this poem is trying to accomplish. I also think that Liz R made an interesting point when she said that soldiers are looking to be victorious, not kill a large amount of people. The soldiers are doing their job and trying to succeed, their job happens to include possibly killing someone to survive and succeed.
In the link that follows is a picture of a soldier that I believe fits this poem. http://images.search.yahoo.com/images/view?back=http%3A%2F%2Fimages.search.yahoo.com%2Fsearch%2Fimages%3Fei%3Dutf-8%26fr%3Dsfp%26p%3Duniversal%2Bsoldier%26iscqry%3D&w=416&h=500&imgurl=static.flickr.com%2F74%2F185406142_c1d031bfcf.jpg&rurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.flickr.com%2Fphotos%2Fslaminsky%2F185406142%2F&size=105kB&name=Universal%20Soldier&p=universal%20soldier&type=JPG&oid=1bd5da3450f54316&fusr=Slaminsky&tit=Universal%20Soldier&hurl=http://www.flickr.com/photos/slaminsky/&no=3&tt=7744 This image of a soldier is not like many seen, this image is completely blurred. The soldier’s face, age, nationality, and ethnicity are all hidden with this blur. This image fits “Universal Soldier” because the soldier in this picture is clearly wearing army fatigues; however, the soldier has no identity due to the blur. The solider could be any age or any nationality just like in the song.
Chris G (11)
Hey everybody,
I agree with Chris too about how everybody has very similar interpretations about the poem. Even though the author is so controversial in this poem we all came up with similar ideas. In the link that follows is a picture of a young mother and her kids.
http://www.vaugelsculpture.com/pages/gallerypages/gallery/gallerycolor/colorspiritpiecesIII/the%20universalsoldier%20side.html
I thought that this picture fits the poem very well. The reason of that is in the poem author says “He’s all of 31 and he’s only 17” which shows very clearly in the picture with kids and young lady regardless of their ages or gender. I am little confused about the wings of the woman. I am not sure about what the main point was of picturing the women with wings back of her because in the poem author was putting blame on soldiers. However, in this picture woman looks like an angle.
Didem E. (50)
Hey guys its Josh again I agree with what everyone has posted before me also. Wes had a pretty good point about what he said about the soliders choosing who they kill. I for one do not agree with this statement. They as individuals did not choose to kill anyone they were put into a spot were they had no choice but to fight. If they did not they would be punished by the government. Anyone that would have put into this situation would have had the same outcome as these individuals.
Hey everyone it's Jennifer. Looking back at everyones new post I would have to agree with everyone on what they said the lyrics. I argree with Jan when she says that soldiers can be soldiers even coming from different backgrounds the one characteristic that they all have in common is fighting in a war. I also agree with Josh when he says soldiers do not choose to kill anyone it is there job to fight but in doing that it is their job to survive with that there is killing of other soldiers who are trying to do the same thing. In illustrating the “Universal Soldier”, I found a picture of a female soldier; I feel like this illustrates the lyrics well because a soldier can be young or old, male or female and come from very different backgrounds. http://www.flickr.com/photos/13268958@N05/1480617985/
Hey guys its mac again. I think that everyone has some good points on the song. I think it was didem that said the time the song was written might have influenced the author to write what he wrote. Being in a time of war and rebellion can influence someone very easily. I also agree with how didem said that the soldiers are fighting not just to kill, but to end a conflict which gives some purpose to kill.
Hey guys its Mac, again. I think that everyone analyzed the song very well. I think that everyone brought out good points that show the rhetoric of the song. I really agree with Josh when he says that the soldier doesn't choose to kill, but it is more his job to survive against the enemy. And in doing that a soldier must often take the life of another human being. I also like how chris says that the environment that a soldier is in influences him to fight to survive and do all he can to survive. This brings up what liz and chris talked about, and thats how strong a soldier must be when he is in these intense situations.
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