Saturday, March 22, 2008

Susie I. (11), Kelly M. (11), Brendan S. (26), Alexandra K. (50), Beth A. (60), Brian F. (60), Fayon F. (4), Marlene R. (2), Barbara E. (4)

26 comments:

JShoe said...

Bob Dylan – “Masters of War” (1963)

Come you masters of war
You that build all the guns
You that build the death planes
You that build the big bombs
You that hide behind walls
You that hide behind desks
I just want you to know
I can see through your masks

You that never done nothin'
But build to destroy
You play with my world
Like it's your little toy
You put a gun in my hand
And you hide from my eyes
And you turn and run farther
When the fast bullets fly

Like Judas of old
You lie and deceive
A world war can be won
You want me to believe
But I see through your eyes
And I see through your brain
Like I see through the water
That runs down my drain

You fasten the triggers
For the others to fire
Then you set back and watch
When the death count gets higher
You hide in your mansion
As young people's blood
Flows out of their bodies
And is buried in the mud

You've thrown the worst fear
That can ever be hurled
Fear to bring children
Into the world
For threatening my baby
Unborn and unnamed
You ain't worth the blood
That runs in your veins

How much do I know
To talk out of turn
You might say that I'm young
You might say I'm unlearned
But there's one thing I know
Though I'm younger than you
Even Jesus would never
Forgive what you do

Let me ask you one question
Is your money that good
Will it buy you forgiveness
Do you think that it could
I think you will find
When your death takes its toll
All the money you made
Will never buy back your soul

And I hope that you die
And your death'll come soon
I will follow your casket
In the pale afternoon
And I'll watch while you're lowered
Down to your deathbed
And I'll stand o'er your grave
'Til I'm sure that you're dead

Anonymous said...

Greetings to All:

My name is Barbara E. aka Barbie, I am a freshman at USC Upstate majoring in journalism. I have always found that lyrics express my own feelings so much better than I can express my own thoughts at times.

My personal thoughts on these lyrics would be that the singer, Bob Dylan, is expressing his feelings that the men behind declaring war and keeping it going would not feel the same if they themselves had to fight it or send one of their children to fight in the blood bath. It’s easy to act holier-than-thou declaring war, barking orders and sending our soldiers out to die when they themselves know they’ll be at home eating dinner with their families tonight.

Not to mention that these money hungry “warlords” would do anything to cushion their pockets. But at whose expense and at what cost?

I believe that’s the idea behind the lyrics is that they don’t think anything of sending nameless thousands out to die or to fight a “war” that cannot be won. To those in power it’s basically a pissing contest and they don’t see it as real. They tell the families of the fallen soldiers that they express their heartfelt sympathy and that they died a noble death but do these people actually get it? Or is it just more smoozing to further their own blood lust and politics and to line their own pockets with as much money as they can get away with without completely alienating the American people?

Sincerely ~

Barbie E.

Anonymous said...

Hi everybody,

my name is Marlene, I'm an exchange student from Germany at USC Upstate.
My major is English at USC, but in Germany it's translation, so I hope this year here in the States will help me
improving my English :)

Bob Dylan is talking about the "masters of war", which actually are not the people fighting and risking their lives,
but the people in the background, that give orders. Most of the time, these people even stay in their own country
and never see anything that is actually happening to and with the soldiers.

He says those warlords build everything to destroy the enemy, but in the end can never be charged for anything
because others do the "dirty work," they just sit back and watch from a distance.
He calls them liers for making the soldiers and their fasmilies believe, that the war can be won
They bring fear over people, just thinking of their own good, a.k.a. their money they make with war.

In the end he hopes that these people will realize, that they can never buy back their souls,
which in my opinion means being a good person, with the money they make, they get nothing out of war
that would be worth the deads. He hopes that these people die and he will follow their casket to
make sure they're dead, so that this can end.

Thanks and bye, Marlene

Brendan Smith said...

Hey girls and guys, what’s going on? I’m Brendan, a froshie at Clemson majoring in bio, and I’m from CT. Yeah, I can read your minds right now (“ Oh we’ve got a Yankee…”). And I know Yankee means Northerner and that it’s not supposed to be really derogatory, but I can’t stand when I’m called that because I’m a lifelong Red Sox fan. Anyway, let’s talk about my boy, Bobby D.
Though a lot of people just think of Dylan as the Master of Weed, it’s evident in “Masters of War” that he was actually a brilliant songwriter whose songs always had a message that he wanted to convey to the public. In this song, however, his audience is not the general public; it is every person in an authoritative position who has allowed the Vietnam War to proceed. He’s disgusted with the men who order that guns and planes be made, but sit back and relax as draftees fight and die in Vietnam.
Dylan uses several effective techniques to shoot straight for the hearts of these individuals. His biblical references, in particular, are used to empower his words most. He compares these men to Judas, the greatest traitor and liar in the history of the world. Such a comparison reveals the level of anger Dylan has for these man. Mainly though, saying that “even Jesus would not forgive what you do” makes the most powerful statement of the song. As Jesus died, he prayed that God would forgive those who were crucifying him. If Jesus forgave those who were killing him, wouldn’t He forgive those responsible for pursuing a pointless war? Dylan says no, and he says that to strike a personal blow at his audience, even if he doesn’t truly believe it. The men he writes to are anti-hippy, anti-protesting men, but they are not anti-religion. They were most likely hurt by Dylan’s statement, and if not hurt, that line definitely made them think about why Dylan would say something so extreme—exactly his point.
I feel like I could write a paragraph about every stanza in this song, but I’m not going to. Instead, I’m bouncin’.
Until our next convo, have yourselves some good days,
Brendan S., Section 26, Clemson U.

Anonymous said...

Hello Group,

Hi! My name is Beth and I am a freshman at Clemson. I am interested in environmental and natural resources- not history, BUT I love music so hopefully this will be fun!

After reading the lyrics I believe that Bob Dylan is trying to bring out the irony of the title “Masters of War.” Master implies power and authority that comes from knowledge. So he starts out by elevating the people the song is addressing and then spends the rest of the song tearing them down and defaming their integrity. At the end of the song he says, “All the money you made/ Will never buy back your soul.” I believe that the soul is the essence of humanity and without it our bodies are just corpses, therefore in claiming they have lost their soul he is stating that they have lost all their value as humans. The sentiment of the masters passing from the human world is summed up in the last line, “And I'll stand o'er your grave/'Til I'm sure that you're dead.”

Clearly the speaker is passionate about the subject, which leads me to believe that he was one of the puppets used by the “masters.” A particularly strong line that shows that the speaker felt abandoned is, “You play with my world/
Like it's your little toy/
You put a gun in my hand/
And you hide from my eyes.” I feel like most boys like playing with guns. Whereas before when boys are young they naturally pretend to shoot each other, the real guns leave the possessor with no clear direction. It’s not an instinct to direct the gun they have been given at somebody else. The way the masters hide from the eyes of those they have given the guns to, it is clear the masters want somebody else to do their dirty work, to detach themselves from the evil. Much honesty and respect is associated with eye contact and the masters won’t even grant the speaker this. This stanza just really stuck out to me- I wasn’t even alive during the Vietnam War so it is hard for me to understand what the time period was like, but I feel this paragraph gives me some insight into the emotion.

Have a good one!
Beth A, 60

Anonymous said...

Hey group,

My name is Kelly, and I'm a sophomore at Clemson. I transferred from UConn this semester (I'm a Yank, too..) and I'm majoring in Health Science.

Ok, so Bob Dylan's "Masters of War" is clearly written to the elite "warlords" of the time. Dylan acknowledges that these are the people who are giving their money to "support" or carry out the war. Unfortunately for the "masters of war," Dylan also points out that they are cowards. He says "And you turn and run farther/When the fast bullets fly," which is a total blow to the ego of the power-hungry "masters."

Dylan also poses an interesting question when he says "A world war can be won/You want me to believe." I think that these lines show the idea that war in general is pointless, and will not foster progress, no matter what the outcome. This may reflect the ideas of the men (or boys) fighting the war--Could there really be benefits to killing and being killed?

Overall, Bob Dylan is trying to raise awareness of the injustices of the war--specifically the fact that young men are dying because the men that are supporting the war (with money) are too afraid to put their lives on the line. The song also serves as a warning for the "masters of war" that the young people of America can "see through your masks" and that they are aware of who is sending them to foreign countries to be killed.

Goodbye,

Kelly M., 11, Clemson U.

sirizar said...

Hello All,

I’m Susie, a freshman Environmental Science and Natural Resources Management at Clemson University. I am a huge fan of classic rock and 1960s history and culture, so I was pretty excited when my professor said the assignment would be focused around analyzing antiwar song lyrics of that era. I have never really given Bob Dylan much of a chance, so this should be interesting.
The lyrics are written from the point of view of a soldier who has been forced to fight a rich man’s war. Bob Dylan presents his own thoughts through the point of view of the soldier, thus making the song more thought provoking and effective as an antiwar protest. If Dylan had simply ranted for eight stanzas about how much he hated the war, his message would not have been as nearly as effective as this finished piece.
In addition, Dylan’s use of imagery and allusion in the song help make the soldier’s struggle concrete for the listener. In the first stanza, the soldier basically lists his grievances, using concrete nouns like death planes, guns, and big bombs. These words help the listener to develop an image of the soldier’s plight. Later in the song imagery such as, “blood flows out of their bodies and is buried in the mud,” relate just how gruesome a scene the war has created. Dylan’s use of imagery causes the listener to immediately side with the soldier against the “masters of war.” Thus, Dylan achieves his goal of spreading his message: that the war being fought has been unjustly placed on the shoulders of young men by rich, heartless war lords.
After gaining the listener’s trust, the soldier reveals his anger toward the warlords. The soldier’s expression of emotion motivates the listener to join in the antiwar movement by stirring his or her emotions. A scene of injustice is painted, provoking anyone with a sympathetic heart to side with the soldier. In this way, Dylan effective presents his message, making this song an extremely effective piece of antiwar rhetoric.

Sorry this a little long guys. Analyzing song lyrics is something I like doing. I’m curious to read what you all have to say.

Until next time,

Susie I, Section 11, Clemson U.

Anonymous said...

All,

My name is Brian and I’m a freshman at Clemson. I’m not the biggest Bob Dylan fan, but I’ll take the opportunity to look into some of his stuff.
Early on in the song, Dylan is obviously singling out specifics: Those who build the big bombs and those who hide behind their walls. I feel that he is implying that they may perhaps be cowards in a sense. He first conveys the fact that they build bombs, which could be seen as a rather aggressive or tough thing. But he immediately counters that by saying that they hide behind their walls and desks, which more often thatn not falls under the characteristic of cowardice. He goes on to criticize and chastise those that he considers the ones that have caused all of “his” problems in “his” world. He goes on and supports his earlier claims of cowardice by saying that these people hide in their mansions when the body count rises, and even goes so far as to say that these people have instilled a fear to have children in this world. A rather bold statement follows, saying that even Jesus would not forgive what they do. Of course, Bob Dylan knows what Jesus would do. But I also wonder that if Dylan has such a connectivity with the Almighty, how different is he when he wishes death upon others?

Brian Fitzsimmons

Anonymous said...

Hey guys -

My name's Alexandra (Alley), I'm a freshman at Clemson and I'm from CT, am a life-long Red Sox fan, and hate being called a Yankee for the same reason (haha). I'm majoring in political science and Italian studies.

The lyrics of "Masters of War" obviously present some very powerful imagery, and it is clear that Bob Dylan feels passionate about his subject.

Vietnam sparked a lot of controversy and debate among those involved. When Dylan refers to the "Masters of War", I believe he is addressing the United States government. The 60's was the first time that the American public openly rejected and protested the draft, voicing the idea that it was an individual's choice to enlist or possibly die for their country. I think the lyrics "You fasten the triggers/for others to fire/then you set back and watch/when the death count gets higher" particularly emphasizes this belief. The war was fought by the people (especially the young men), not the leaders of the country. It is unjust to ask a soldier to sacrifice everything for a cause that is not fully supported by the public.

Unsurprisingly, those who did lose their family, friends, and limbs were angry about it. "Masters of War" voices feelings of betrayal, abandonment, and rage ("Like Judas of old/You lie and deceive/A war can be won/You want me to believe", "But there's one thing I know/Though I'm younger than you/even Jesus would never/Forgive what you do"). Nobody likes warfare, and the inevitable outcome of any battle is casualties. There are some causes, however, that people are willing to fight for. Vietnam was not one of them. "Masters of War" conveys the public opinion of the time, and it is not a coincidence that it was the only war during which we did not succeed.

More to come later!

Alley Kritzman (50)

Anonymous said...

Hey everybody,

first of all I have to say that I am pretty impressed by what some of you said, I am really not good at interpreting lyrics and if somebody asks me “what is he telling us with that?” or if somebody wants to know the message behind something I usually don’t have an answer. But I think in this song it is pretty clear and I agree with Barbie, that song texts express my own feelings better that I ever could. I also agree with her that the “Masters of war,” if they actually would fight the war, wouldn’t behave like they do, that they would have a different view of the things going on.
I also liked the comparison from Beth stated in her posting: the difference between little boys shooting guns for fun and than actual soldiers who have to kill somebody to safe their own life. I have to say that I have deep respect for people who are willing to do that and who risk their own life for others. And I think that is another point that Bob Dylan wants to point out, that those people giving orders don’t look at the “acting” people with as much respect as they should. They cannot know how it actually is in war when they’ve never been there.

So much for this time,
Looking forward to hearing from you guys, Marlene (2)

sirizar said...

Hello again,

First off, I was also extremely impressed by what everyone had to say about the lyrics. Many different aspects of the lyrics were discussed in the blog posts that had not even crossed my mind when I tried to analyze the lyrics. I was particularly caught by the points Brendan made about using religious references to catch the attention of the “masters of war” to which the lyrics were directed. When reading the lyrics I simply considered their affect on the young, antiwar college students and adults who probably drank in Dylan’s lyrics like sweet honey. However, I never considered their effect on the men supporting the war. Viewing from this angle has helped me to realize the harshness of Dylan’s lyrics. Another point that increased my understanding of the lyrics was the point Kelly made toward the end of her post saying, “The song also serves as a warning for the "masters of war" that the young people of America can ‘see through your masks’.” Her point again brings me to consider the reaction of the wealthy government officials supporting the war. The officials authorizing the draft papers, those sending supplies, those drawing up war strategies. Did these men fear hate crimes? Were these officials scared for their lives and the lives of their families? The lyrics are so angry that I almost get the feeling a crazed antiwar supporter could have taken violent action because of Dylan’s words.

Until next time,

Susie I., Section 11, Clemson U.

Anonymous said...

Hey crew,

Big ups to everyone's interpretations, for they were all well done. It was nice get some variety in the responses. And it's crazy that there are three CT children in one group.
In any song written by a poetic songwriter such as Dylan, there is endless symbolism that can be unveiled in each line or even word. When the songwriters have to put their finishing touch on the song (the title), they do not abandon their deepness of thought, and that's why I'm glad that Beth pointed that out. A title can mean a lot, and can often give a reader or listener insight on what's to come. Beth discussed how Dylan's choice of a title "Masters of War" is purposely ironic, and I could not agree more. At first glance, such a title makes one think of admirable, intelligent men who are the best of the best in what they do. Then you hear the song, and Dylan shouts the opposite.
My other point of discussion arises from a good observation that Susie made. Imagery is a technique that many writers rely on to captivate an audience, and Susie hit the nail on the head when she referenced Dylan's line about the blood flowing from bodies of American soldiers. While a listener can often get caught up in the music and forget to listen intently on lyrics, image-depicting lines like that really wake a listener up and catch their attention. This horrific scene described in the song really exposes the grimness of the war and the seriousness of Dylan's lyrics.


Peace out cub scouts,
Brendan, Section 26

Anonymous said...

Greetings once again to all:

Some very good points have been raised on this blog. Some of which I agree, some of which I disagree.

First, I agree with Kelly and Brian that the so-called "masters of war" are cowards. It is far too easy to hide behind an official title and issue orders to raise your guns and to kill other human beings. Of being thrown into a situation of "kill or be killed" with other human beings who have not personally harmed or threatened you.If they truly believe so much in the cause why don't they step up, done fatigues and fight alongside these young men that they so "bravely" drafted to fight this most valiant cause? Then the America people may just stand behind their reasoning instead of protesting with the intelligence that these men of power so severely lacked.

Although I must say I also disagree with Brian. I do not believe that Dylan is saying that any of these people have done anything great or tough but rather that he is "calling them out." For no one to mistake of whom he is speaking to and stating his protest against. He is strongly stating that they are cowards.

He is also saying that it is scary to have children at that point in time because these men are too eager to go to war and inact the draft. Unlike the current war many of these men did not sign up to fight for their country but were instead forced into combat. Many sleepless nights were had by thousands of parents everywhere scared to death they were going to get "that" call or "that" knock on the door.

He goes on to say that Dylan is focusing on how the war is causing "his" problems in "his" world. Dylan, in my opinion, is more saying that these blood thirsty cowardly war mongers are the problems OF the world, at least of the American people by butting their nose where it didn't belong.

I must also disagree with Susie when she states that "The lyrics are so angry that I almost get the feeling a crazed antiwar supporter could have taken violent action because of Dylan’s words." Most anti-war supporters were peace loving hippies and protested the war with peaceful means in a blatant stance against the violence. Many lyrics of the day were angry representing the sentiment of the American people. Rather than go out and commit violence many of the protesters, including Dylan, chose instead to express themselves via lyrics and to give the cause a voice.

Also the lyrics regarding what Jesus would do is more a metaphor and not meant to be taken quite so literal. Jesus was a peace loving man and asked God to forgive his transgressors because "they know not what they do." These "masters" knew exactly what they were doing.

Dylan wishing death upon the "masters" was more a means of saying that perhaps there can be peace when they are out of power. Of David slaying Goliath.

I do not mean to be argumentative this is just my personal take on things. Anyone who wishes to disagree by all means I would enjoy hearing your different take on the subject. Perhaps you'll be able to shed light upon something and offer a perspective I have yet to consider.

Always with Blessings,

Barbie

Anonymous said...

Greetings to one and all:

I must say that I agree with both Beth and Brendan in regards to the title of the song "Masters of War" being contradictory in terms.

Masters implies that one has sufficiently perfected a skill, sport or other actiivty to such a degree that one is looked at as being at the top of their craft. So in my personal opinion I believe that Dylan is purposely using such a bold title to make a very clear point about the song and its meaning.

He is saying that these highly regarded and prestigious men behind the masks have perfected the "art" of war. The strategy, the cunning and decisive planning of every move and all the while making war sound justified and necessary to the American people.

The men, as Beth so accurately stated, are the equivalent of little boys playing Army with their little plastic toy men, except in this "game" they're playing with real lives and true blood is being spilled across the enemy lines. But what do these "Masters" care? After all, it's just a game of strategy, right?

As for our other medium I chose the song, "War" by Edwin Starr. In the song Starr asks what good is war? Absolutely nothing!

The lyrics of this song...

"Ohhh, war, I despise
Because it means destruction
Of innocent lives

War means tears
To thousands of mothers eyes
When their sons go to fight
And lose their lives"

...echo the same message as Dylan's song. Death, destruction and the needless heart wrenching pain of thousands of parents who only have a name on the Vietnam War Memorial Wall to hold on to. A bitter reminder of how many people really did spill their blood on foreign soil.

It goes on to say...

"War, it ain't nothing but a heartbreaker
War, friend only to the undertaker
Peace, love and understanding
Tell me, is there no place for them today
They say we must fight to keep our freedom
But Lord knows there's got to be a better way"

...friend only to the undertaker. Friend also to the blood thirsty and money hungry "masters" calling the shots, profitting from the war and abusing their power. Power entrusted to them by the American people. Power corrupted, twisted and souls willingly sold to feed the maddening hunger within for more. More power, more money, more blood. Anyone's blood so long as it furthers their interest.

War! What's it good for? Absolutely nothing!

Blessings to all and best of luck with your future endeavors,

Barbie



www.oldielyrics.com/lyrics/edwin_starr/war.html

Anonymous said...

Hey guys!

The cool thing about interpreting a song as a group is that everybody picks up on different aspects, lyrics, or phrases. I didn't pick up on a lot of things other people said, and it was interesting to be able to analyze the song through somebody else.

I thought it was really insightful that Marlene picked up on the way the warlords can send soldiers out to do their "dirty work" but in the end can never be blamed because they didn't actually carry out the wrongful acts. It reminds me of the part of the song where Dylan says "You that never done nothin'/but build to destroy/you play with my world/like it's your little toy". It's completely true, the powerful people of the world (presidents, dictators, the extremely wealthy) control many aspects of our lives that we don't even realize. When a war is started, the way we react as a country and people is really up to their discretion. We may technically elect a leader to rule the USA, but as a nation we do not vote on how to act during a time of war. There are a few restrictions and rules, but our response is basially a subjective response from our President.

I also thought it was interesting how Kelly interpreted Dylan's song to be a message from the young people specifically to the warlords. It makes me wonder if as young people we are more able to see the truth in politics and war. For all of this the next election will be our first, and it is the first time we have to evaluate and choose potential leaders for our country. I agree with Kelly, and that's why I think it's sad that more young people refuse to participate in elections and politics.

Later!

-Alexandra Kritzman (50)

Anonymous said...

Group,
I apologize for not posting on Friday it completely slipped my mind, but I figured I would still make an attempt at a post. As with everyone else, I thought that everyone had a good bit to offer to the exercise. I understand that we all have contrasting views but also recognize that the fact that we have the ability to exress them helps everyone in the long run. So I would like to say that I respect everyone’s ideas and hope you can do the same for mine.
On my first note, I would have to say that I disagree with Barbie on her first post. She claims that these men are money hungry “warlords.” I do not believe that anyone in the American government system can be labeled as a war lord, much less as money hungry during a time period such as Vietnam. Certainly the way the Vietnam War was conducted and handled here at home left much to be desired, but to call one a warlord expresses the connotation that these men had no remorse for what was happening to our soldiers. All too often the Vietnam War is labled as a pointless war and we had no right to be there, but we were in the Cold War and our enemy, and moreover the threat to our nation, was communism. Our idea of the domino theory was right, as we saw when North Vietnam broke the treaty to not invade South Vietnam after we withdrew, so our motives to suppress communism was not without much consideration.
I would also like to address Kelly’s post. First to the question of whether there is are benefits for killing. As immoral as it may sound, I would argue yes. And I would argue yes in the aspect of ridding the earth of those who commit evil and murderous acts on the innocent. In our world today, no man, woman, or child is immune to the death and destruction that our enemy tries to impose on us. So I would have to ask, would you consider perhaps your child getting to live their life in peace a benefit of killing a terrorist that would otherwise specifically target him or her?
I would just also like to say that it seems that through this song everyone is under the impression that every man that fought in the Vietnam War was forced to and disagreed with why they were doing it. Please do not forget the men and women who volunteer to protect all of us when necessary.
Brian Fitzsimmons Sec. 60

Anonymous said...

Hey everyone!
As many of you guys have already mentioned, I, too was surprised at the amount of different ideas and interpretations that our group has come up with. Barbie started out the conversation well, as she got into the heads of the warlords that the song is geared to. I thought it was interesting when she said, “They tell the families of the fallen soldiers that they express their heartfelt sympathy and that they died a noble death but do these people actually get it?” Not only does this turn our attention to the difference between the lives of the soldiers and the warlords, but it also sheds light on the possibility that the warlords don’t understand much about the war. Yes, they are the ones behind the scenes making the plans and paying the bills, but is that what war is really about, or does it really come down to the men and boys that are losing and risking their lives?
Before reading Susie’s first post, I didn’t even think about how persuasive Dylan is in this piece. He is very successful in making the listener agree with his side. Susie said, “A scene of injustice is painted, provoking anyone with a sympathetic heart to side with the soldier.” I thought this was a very interesting and important thing to point out, considering the time the song was written, instead of reflecting on the injustice after-the-fact, it was important that Dylan relates to the audience so that the song could be used as anti-war propaganda. The song was not written to tell the listeners how the times were, but rather to quickly spark emotion so that the times could change.
I thought many of our posts were similar in that we all agreed on the basic message, speaker, and audience for the song, but outside of that, different interpretations were made by all, which makes for a thought-provoking conversation!
Until next time,
Kelly M., 11, Clemson U.

Anonymous said...

Hey Group Members!

I also want to apologize for not posting on Friday ☹ It was cool how so many people commented on the “Masters of War” and who they might be, but everybody had something different to say so it really helped develop their character- it helped me see why they would be so despised.

Brendan had a really good point that the most powerful statement of the song is, “even Jesus would not forgive what you do.” The comparison Brendan drew between this statement to the fact that Jesus forgave those that killed him helps to emphasize why this statement is powerful. Also, the intensity of the speaker’s hatred is once again brought to attention- the speaker continuously defames the souls of the “masters of war.” Which leads into Alley’s point.

I agree that the “masters of war” stands for the U.S. Government. However, I think that Alley did the best job naming the feelings of the speaker and the soldiers that he represents- “"Masters of War" voices feelings of betrayal, abandonment, and rage.” Before reading Alley’s post I was only thinking of “masters of war” as a name or way of describing the enemy- not as a phrase that could reveal the feelings of the speaker. Alley also made the conclusion that the soldiers and their families were destined to be left in this state because the Vietnam War was not being fought for causes people were willing to fight for. Alley said, “Nobody likes warfare, and the inevitable outcome of any battle is casualties. There are some causes, however, that people are willing to fight for. Vietnam was not one of them.” This statement made me feel like we have reached the same point today with the war in Iraq.

That’s all for today,
Beth A, 60

Anonymous said...

Hey Group Members!

For my last post I’m going to focus on the audience of the lyrics. Susie said in her second post, “When reading the lyrics I simply considered their affect on the young, antiwar college students and adults who probably drank in Dylan’s lyrics like sweet honey. However, I never considered their effect on the men supporting the war.” I had not thought of either of those things. I bet these lyrics just encouraged the college students and adults in their anti-war sentiment. However, how did those that supported the war respond to statements like this? My guess is that people who tend to react more to logic were little affected, whereas those that were more emotional and empathetic probably spent more time considering Bob Dylan’s point. Kelly responded to Susie in her last blog post, “it was important that Dylan relates to the audience so that the song could be used as anti-war propaganda.” Kelly brings up a great point that it is important to evaluate these lyrics keeping the purpose in mind. As we all know, propaganda is misleading but is designed to raise support for a political cause. Therefore, as we read the strong statements of Bob Dylan it is important to also look at the other side.

http://www.lib.berkeley.edu/MRC/pacificaviet/

The above link is a website created by UC Berkeley and lists all the major decisions made and actions taken by the U.S. Government during the Vietnam War. It is organized sequentially from 1960 through the post-war period. In addition, there are links to the sources, other relevant articles and movies from the time. The lyrics culminate to express an intense hatred by the speaker and other soldiers towards the “masters of war” and to try and show their corruption. I believe that this website is relevant to the lyrics because it lists the actions of the government just as the poem- maybe not with the same purpose or feeling as Bob Dylan. However, I feel that readers can be just as moved with the specific truth.

It was fun-
Beth A, 60

sirizar said...

Hello one final time...

This topic of antiwar rhetoric is extremely relatable to the situation concerning the war in Iraq that our country is currently facing. I can definitely relate to what Beth said in the last sentence of her second post, when she related the lack of support for the Vietnam War to the growing lack of support for the War in Iraq. This thought has been hovering over my thought process since we began this project. In looking at the reception that both wars have received, it is interesting to note the effect that music has played in swaying the public opinion. Dylan’s song, “Masters of War,” is pretty clear about its message. He calls out those who decided to get the US involved in the Vietnam War, and then rips their credibility to shreds as he paints the picture of an angry, suffering soldier. With regard to today’s antiwar rhetoric, I have not seen the same biting lyrics from the music industry. There have certainly been songs that have received attention for their call to peace, such as the Black Eyed Peas song “Where is the Love?”. Other musicians have suffered due to taking a stand on the War in Iraq, such as the Dixie Chicks. Working with Dylan’s persuasive song lyrics makes it seem relatively simple to stand up and take a public stand, whether it be in support or against the war. However, the sentiment to take action and show emotion is lacking in our society. This brings me to agree with Alexandra’s feeling of sadness that more young people do not participate in the political process. Whether we feel jaded by fake politicians or not, it is our duty and right to take part in the political process and form opinions about decisions made by the government.
After searching Google for antiwar images, I came across a simple poster stating, “Join the War on War.” This statement is clearly a play on words for what the current war in Iraq is sometimes called, the War on Terror. This visual clearly relates to our topic of discussion because it is a blatant call for antiwar sentiments. This poster is simple, but I feel it clearly illustrates the fact that antiwar rhetoric is not a thing of the past, but rather it will always be part of the culture of war.

http://images.todaystmj4.com/images/antiwar_poster.bmp

I really enjoyed participating in this blog. Thanks to all for being so open and honest!

For the last time,

Susie I, Section 11, Clemson U.

Anonymous said...

Hey everyone,

I want to start out this post by looking into the line “Even Jesus would never/Forgive what you do” because it seems to strike up some controversy and it serves as an interesting way to include religion in Dylan’s argument. I have to say that I totally agree with Brendan’s reasoning, when he said in his first post that “If Jesus forgave those who were killing him, wouldn’t He forgive those responsible for pursuing a pointless war? Dylan says no, and he says that to strike a personal blow at his audience…” I think that Dylan used religion to get the “masters’” attention, and simultaneously making them think about their actions. If these “masters” are really “men of God,” then perhaps they will think twice when someone condemns their actions to being so bad that not even Jesus would forgive them.

Barbie also brought up an interesting point when it comes to religion when she pointed out that “Dylan wishing death upon the ‘masters’ was more a means of saying that perhaps there can be peace when they are out of power. Of David slaying Goliath.” I thought that the analogy that Barbie made between David and Goliath and the soldiers and the masters was both interesting and accurate. I think that those who fought in the war against their will may have seen themselves in a war against our government and our “masters of war,” who seem to be more powerful and influential in the grand scheme of things. In this way, the soldiers are much like David going up against a seemingly impossible-to-beat opponent such as Goliath. This analogy is also interesting because now one could argue that not only does Dylan use religion to nag at the “masters of war” and make them think about their actions, but he also uses religion to give support and hope for the soldiers and anti-war protesters, because maybe like David, the soldiers and protesters could change the tide of the war and defeat Goliath.

Here is a link that I found while trying to uncover some anti-war propaganda of the ‘60s: http://www.psywarrior.com/vn3VCsigns.jpg

I thought that this image was interesting and related to Dylan’s lyrics and our interpretation of them. The picture is of an anti-war protest, and gives insight to the feelings of the public at the time. Similarly to our interpretation and discussion, I thought that this image also shows that the public wanted the government to know that they are not fooled by promises of victory and peace. This is seen by the posters that read “WEAPONS CANNOT WIN THE PEOPLE.” I thought that this poster in particular answers a question that I posed in a previous post about whether war and death can even lead to good. I would argue that the man holding this sign would say no.

Thanks for the insight,
Kelly M., 11, Clemson U.

Anonymous said...

To my posse:
I'm afraid to say that this is final post. Don't worry about me, I'll be fine. After reading everyone's second comments, I really tried to look at everyone's connections to another medium so that I don't reiterate the aspects previously discussed.
In Barbie's last entry, she discussed the "war" song that was revealed to our generation through Jackie Chan's rendition in Rush Hour. In that song, the following stanza bears a striking resemblance to one of Dylan's in "Masters of War."
"War means tears/ To thousands of mothers eyes/ When their sons go to fight/ And lose their lives"
Now here's Dylans:
“You've thrown the worst fear/ That can ever be hurled/ Fear to bring children/ Into the world”
Barbie's song and Dylan's song both use pathos to effectively persuade. Including anything about mothers losing children or children losing parents creates an immense feeling of sympathy for either of the subjects, and thus helping the musician achieve their mission.
I checked out Kelly's picture, and it correlates a lot with Dylan's message. The strikers hold signs that say "Weapons Cannot Win the People," and "Bring the Troops Home Now." The weapons sign directly relates to “Masters of War” because in the beginning, he talks about all the weapon-making the head honcho’s do, and throughout the whole song, he has clearly not been won over by his country. As for the other sign, it's eerie how similar the message is to our war today.
My connection is to two songs that I have had on my I-Pod for a while, one being “Bring ‘Em Back Home” by Blue Scholars (which has a self-explanatory title), and another being “Loud and Clear” by 7L and Esoteric. These are politically active underground rappers (not music with snare drums and static in the background), but good music. The main line I’ll focus on is in “Loud and Clear,” which totally sums up Dylan’s message:
“You can look at this verse as a word to the wise
Realize open up your eyes
We got people over seas gettin' blown to bits and thrown in a ditch
While Bush is at the game throwin' out the openin' pitch”
Weird that this assignment is due today, because Bush actually did throw out the opening pitch last night at the Nationals’ game in DC, and he even did some in-game commentating in a cozy warm press box. I think the war might have crossed his mind in the 7th inning stretch when “God Bless America” was sung.
Good talking with you guys.
Yours for the cause of Peace and Brotherhood (robbed from MLK, then from J-Shoe),
Brendan, Section 26

Anonymous said...

Hey everybody for a last time-
What I like about this blog is that we don’t all agree with each other. That makes a discussion interesting or even starts it, because if everybody agrees, there obviously is no discussion.
I really don’t have much left to say, I’m sorry. I agree with Kelly, that the situation back then is similar to what the situation in America is right now in the War on Terror. In the beginning of this war, people extremely supported it, but by now, it has changed a lot, people want the soldiers to come back home and want the war to end.
I found a picture, and I am sorry for this link, but I don’t know, how to do it better, so I have to explain to you, which picture I mean. It is the one in the third row at the end, the child pointing at the viewer saying “our world needs You to end War.” It is designed like the poster calling for soldiers to sign into the army saying “we want you.” So I think it says the world, and because it is designed like this old poster it includes the American society which normally, and I am sorry for that, too, it’s kind of a cliché and I don’t want to offend anyone, is “war-crazy.” I really don’t mean to make anyone angry, that is just the perception some people in Germany get of American people. Not that much about American people anymore, but George W. Bush.
http://www.uberbabyworld.com/page3.htm
So, thanks for the talk, I found it really interesting and I hope you too. Marlene (2)

Anonymous said...

First of all I would like to say that I enjoyed this exercise and hope everyone else did too. This is a good way to allow everyone to voice their opinions and take a look at the opinions of others. But now I would like to get on with the post.
In regards to nearly everyone who posted, the concept of these men being “money hungry” and according to Barbie, that are profiting from this war, that whole conception is wrong. There was no money to be made in waging a war in Southeast Asia. We were part of a treaty with South Vietnam that stated if they were attacked and threatened to be overrun by a Communist regime, we would help them. Men that were involved in our government, no matter how corrupt all of you are convinced they were, did not profit from this war. There can be no argument that the Vietnam war was executed in the wrong manner, but I feel that this only raises a question. Should the United States get involved in a conflict that it does not completely intend to win? The answer should be no, but that answer should be drawn from the understanding of the consequences of losing that conflict. The terms in which we entered Vietnam were not without good reason, but the ultimate consequences did not pose a significant threat to us.
However, there were consequences and in this aspect I will talk about Bob Dylan. The only thing Bob Dylan and this BS of a song did was support the withdrawal of American troops from Vietnam before we won. Oh yea, it also helped lead to the execution of two million men, women, and children of South Vietnam and Cambodia, as well as the nearly one million people who became refugees, also known as the “Boat People.” But for some reason, and I can’t seem to comprehend it, Mr. Dylan hasn’t written about those people. Instead he talked about all the evil America was doing in Vietnam, but somehow overlooked the evil that took place as a result of us not winning the war.
Also, I would like to add that we ARE NOT at the same point with our War on Terror, and to say so is to show a complete misunderstanding of the consequences we face if we lose. We did not fear the communists that took over Vietnam of acquiring nuclear weapons. With our current enemies it is a REAL fear. It is a real fear not only because we know they would use them on innocent men, women, and children, but also because they have the capability to do so. These terrorist do not want to quiet Americans, they want to kill us. We would lose all support from other nations because why would they want to support someone who has proven to be impotent and that cannot help them? We must win this war and we will not do so if we continue to let people like Bob Dylan poison the minds of the American public.
This link is to an overview of the Tet Offensive, a major battle that was and in large part still is conveyed as the big defeat that showed we were losing the war. Too bad we absolutely demolished the North Vietnamese Army and Viet Cong, but Walter Kronkite decided to leave that part out.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tet_Offensive
God Bless America and the men and women who have always, and still do protect her.
Brian Fitzsimmons sec. 60

Anonymous said...

Hey guys -

Last post! I think we've analyzed these lyrics pretty thoroughly. I agree with Marlene, what made this discussion intresting was the disagreeing opinions. We wouldn't have much to talk about if everybody interpreted the song the same way.

I agree with Beth, Brendan, and Barbie - "Masters of War" is a very hypocritical title for the song. If one was a complete master of war, their men would not constantly be dying. Obviously, in war death is inevitable, but Vietnam was particularly gruesome. This song was written for a reason - when the United States went into Vietnam, it sparked a large amount of controversy. Oftentimes, opposed our involvement due to the astonishing death toll. If the people making our military decisions were "masters," we would have been much more successful and had a lot less casualties.

I also agree with Beth, I feel like the War in Iraq is very similar to what we went through in Vietnam. In both situations, we did not have specific aims, and instead invaded these countries with a general idea of what we wanted to accomplish. During a lecture, one of my history teachers (who is an ex-marine) said that in order to be successful in war, a military had to have specific, attainable goals. I agree, and do not feel like our goals in both situations were realistic. (Will terrorism ever be completely abolished?)

This is the link to my image - http://www.lib.berkeley.edu/MRC/pacificaviet/sfdraft.jpg

This is a picture of a draft protest. The Vietnam war was really the first time Americans had ever protested the draft on a large scale. Many WWI and WWII vets were appalled that young people would do such a thing and refuse to fight for their country. Before that, many entered war without much of an idea of what they were fighting for, and they were okay to blindly defend the U.S. This was the first time people stepped back to ask "Wait a minute, before I sacrifice my life for this cause, what exactly are we fighting for? Is it a principle I am willing to die for?". I thought this was reflected in "Masters of War" with the lines "You play with my world/Like it's your little toy".

Later!

-Alley Kritzman (50)

Anonymous said...

Hey guys ~

I know this post is not necessary but in response to Brian's last post I felt it would be appropriate to explain why I use the term "money hungry". Below I cite two websites that explains where this ideology comes from.

As we've all said it's a good thing that we don't all agree because it wouldn't be much of a conversational blog. It has been very enlightening to hear all sorts of different views. I've greatly enjoyed the experience. Also, as I stated previously it is not my intent to be argumentative but rather to hopefully share a perspective that perhaps you've not entertained as of yet.

I'm a non-traditional student, I will turn 35 this year. I was a newlywed when the fear of the draft was considered to be re-enacted during Operation Desert Storm. My husband was of the age that it was a very real fear for us. Not to mention I have always been very activist oriented. I have lived through and paid particular attention to Desert Storm and Iraqi Freedom. My father-in-law was in the 25th Infantry during the Vietnam War, horrors that to this day he will not discuss and occassionally still experiences night terrors and flashbacks. I've been very fortunate to have a clearer view from all angles... as an activist, from friends who have served in the military and from survivors of Vietnam.
My husband and I are members of Patriot Guard Riders. A motorcycle group dedicated to escorting injured military personnel home after being flown back to the states and acting as a barrier to protesters at soldiers' funerals to keep them away from the grieving family.
In fact the Vietnam War Memorial Wall is coming to USC Upstate April 17th thru April 20th. My husband and I are volunteers who will be helping people find the names on the wall. My husband's uncle being among those names. I invite you all out to visit the wall and feel the emotion that comes from it. To truly understand the costs of this war.
On April 15th, we will be riding with the Patriot Guard Riders to escort the wall on its journey from I-26 to USC Upstate campus. There is expected to be over 800 motorcylces escorting and showing their respect and appreciation to the our military personnel. Our message?
We respect, honor and thank you them for their courage in defending this wonderful nation of ours. Freedom isn't free but these brave souls lay their lives on the line for it every day.
But that still doesn't justify the government's greed or "motives" of war. I was a big supporter of the war at first but it has gone on way too long. Even our brothers and sisters in the military here at home are all now saying, "bringing our people home."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
2. What was the US trying to accomplish in Vietnam?

Profit.

U.S. News and World Report wrote:

One of the world's richest areas is open to the winner in Indochina. That's behind the growing U.S. concern ... tin, rubber, rice, key strategic materials are what the war is really all about. The U.S. sees it as a place to hold at any cost.

Wrote Nation's Business magazine:

The best thinkers on the subject in business and government agree that magnificent business opportunities await in Vietnam Thailand, Laos ... As the military situation in Vietnam improves, they expect the flow of business to double, triple, and quadruple.
Therefore, it was a good thing that the U.S. "lost" in Vietnam Since World War II millions of jobs have been lost in the US as American companies closed factories here and moved them abroad. If the US and their South Vietnamese stooges had won, South Vietnam would have been yet another place for American companies to move to. Hundreds of thousands more American workers would have lost their jobs.

http://chss.montclair.edu/english/furr/vnmont84.html

by Grover Furr, Professor who teaches a course on the Vietnam War
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Those who have followed this oil importation scandal closely will recall that Halliburton, Vice President Dick Cheney’s former place of employment, got a controversial, multi-billion no-bid contract to truck in the oil. Cheney, of course, boosted the Iraq invasion from the get-go. As Paul Buchheit, founder of Global Initiative Chicago, writes in “American Wars: Illusions and Realities”(Clarity), Halliburton “is the most notorious war profiteer, with over half the Pentagon contracts for war services. Halliburton’s revenue in 2006 was $22.5 billion, three times its revenue from 2004.”

http://www.inteldaily.com/?c=144&a=5785

by Sherwood Ross, Miami,Fl-based public relations consultant and writer who covers military and political topics
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Thank you all again for your views and varying insights. It has been a pleasure!

Barbie E.